So the other week, while we were discussing the recent grave injustice done to Procol Harum by the folks at the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, some of our commenters were particularly irked by the fact that Public Enemy was going to be inducted this year.
Because their music is, you know, uh, rap. Not rock. And thus, you know, uh, shouldn't be in the Hall.
Now I'm not particularly a fan of Public Enemy -- actually, I thought Chuck D. was a self-righteous bag of gas back in the day, although I rather enjoyed him subsequently on the late lamented Air America.
But just to put things in perspective, here are three famous rap records, including a classic by P.E.
I dunno, kids, but all three of these -- both musically and in terms of attitude -- sound kinda like rock to me.
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27 comments:
Here here!
OK grant it, these 3 are barely tolerable "rap" songs. If you could call them songs. But that hardly qualifies to be in the RRHOF. I myself have 2, just 2 sort of listenable ones, Summertime by DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince and Gangster's Paradise by Coolio. And they both plagiarize Kool and the Gang and Stevie Wonder, respectively.
This kind of sound is really just stolen beats and snippets of other people's music set to incoherent vocal jabbering. Hardly music at all. This is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it, always have.
And if Funky Cold Medina sounds anywhere near rock, that's because there's a stolen riff from KISS's Christine Sixteen.
From your lips to the Flying Spaghetti Monster's ears, FD13NYC.
I used to be of the opinion that rap was musically bankrupt, but at least qualified as some sort of poetry. But after actually hearing more of this stuff, I think I was way too generous in my initial assessment. And I also lay blame for the fact that so much "rock" from the last 20 years is so tuneless at rap's feet as rap seems to have cheapened the very notions of melody and harmony.
It simply isn't music. At least not to these ears, which of course, don't exactly belong to rap's target demographic.
Here Here Blue Ash Fan!!
It makes about as much sense as inducting Donna Summer.
Look, if it was the "pop" music hall of fame, that's a bland and inclusive enough term to cover all popular music, from Vic Damone to [insert your most hated contemporary performer here].
But disco is not rock'n'roll. Rap is not rock'n'roll. Teen pop pap is not rock'n'roll.
Unless the term has lost all meaning, which I'm afraid it has.
I was one of the more vocal critics of the RRHOF in the prior post, but I can add nothing of worth to what FD13NYC, Blue Ash Fan, and Gummo have said. So - what they said!!!
Bob Dylan, Beach Boys, The Platters, Four Seasons, The Impressions, Marvin Gaye, Grateful Dead, Parliament-Funkadelic. Or how about those big time rockers The Byrds & Van Morrison? No one seems to questions any of these NON rockers.
Why?
They aren't rap.
I find it amazing that years of brilliant commentary on this blog can turn to such disdain over one art form. Now before anyone says I'm comparing all of these legends to any rap artist, please refrain. I am not. But every year, it's the same discussion. It's NOT rock and roll.
It's an all encompassing term. What would you suggest? 12 halls for each genre? Or a name-change to the Rock, Pop, Soul, Blues, R&B, Punk Hall Of Fame?
Plagiarism is theft. Paying for the use of samples and creating sounds with a message is NOT plagiarism. "Incoherent lyrics?" Anyone listen to Van Morrison or David Bowie lately?
There is good and bad. Is Tone Loc getting into the Hall Of Fame? I sincerely doubt it. But if you claim to love all types of music and from whence that music came, Public Enemy deserves a place in the hall, whether you like rap or not.
Sal speaks for me on this.
But in terms of the specific songs I posted -- "White Lines" at this point doesn't sound any different from "Twist and Shout." Which I should remind folks was an r&b record before the Beatles got a hold of it.
"Funky Cold Medina" is a great novelty frat-rock song, in the grand tradition going back to "Louie Louie."
And the PE track is an anarchic roiling roar -- it reminds me of nothing less than Metallica, fer crissakes.
IMHO.
Sorry, no.
Look, I claim no expertise in the genre -- for all I know, rap could be the greatest popular music of all time.
But it ain't rock.
There are lots of musical genres that aren't rock -- country, jazz, zydeco, Latin, standards, Broadway -- and we don't try to shoehorn them into the RRHOF. Rap should be no different.
Just because you happen to like a particular song, or artist, doesn't magically make them "rock".
"Just because you happen to like a particular song, or artist, doesn't magically make them "rock"."
Isn't that my point?
So let's remove Bob Dylan and Van Morrison and The Byrds and just about every one else I mentioned from the RRHOF. Leave Them, because they rocked. But Van on his own, out.
I like PE. I don't love PE. I DO love the Beastie Boys, but generally listen to very little, if any rap.
It shouldn't be about personal tastes. It should be about recognizing merit and influence and talent. If you see no merit or talent in rap music, so be it. Don't like it. Don't listen to it.
But to argue that it doesn't belong in a museum because it's not "rock" doesn't make much sense, if you have no problem with all of the others who don't "rock."
That's all I'm saying.
BTW. I'm not suggesting Tone Loc should be in the Hall of Fame quite yet; his is a rather teensy body of work.
:-)
White Lines is Liquid Liquid's song & they were downtown no-wavers.
The beauty of "Rock" as a genre or social force or whatever was that it embraced Duke Ellington's distinction between good music & the other kind... you could love a good song regardless of a label or the ethnicity of the composer or performer.
The larger problem is the compulsion to categorize music at all... this is an unfortunate artifact of the fact that recorded music is a business and the assigning of genre is the machinations of marketing wankers. It creates tribalism & brand loyalties which moves more product but really has nothing to do with music but the illusion of cultural identification to serve corporate ends.
Rap is the perfect example. By the early 90s it degenerated into a signifier for suburban white kids who absurdly believed that given the right circumstances they too would be living like gangstahs.
Frank Zappa once said something to the effect that if a kid bought a Kiss record & enjoyed it where was the harm?
It seems ridiculous for anyone who claims to like rock music to criticize an African-American musical style for lacking sophistication.... This is the same chauvinism that has existed since the beginning of recorded music. Hence the segregation of Race Records & Billboard creating separate charts for "Our Music" & "Their Music" Even if the critique is valid, and it often is, most heavy metal & new nashville country/pop acts are as aggressively dull & unimaginative as their urban counterparts.
The real problem seems to be that anyone cares who gets into the RRHoF... the whole enterprise has been a travesty since its inception.
Okay, you sort of had me until this.
The larger problem is the compulsion to categorize music at all... this is an unfortunate artifact of the fact that recorded music is a business and the assigning of genre is the machinations of marketing wankers. It creates tribalism & brand loyalties which moves more product but really has nothing to do with music but the illusion of cultural identification to serve corporate ends.
Sorry -- music is NOT and never has been a universal language, and genres are actually real things.
And if you doubt me, try playing a piece of Chinese classical music on a Nashville country station.
Public Enemy -- aggression and the Big Beat.
If that isn't a definition of rock 'n' roll, I don't know what is.
:-)
Absolutely. Lets nuke Cooperstown and the Oscars while we're at it.
Some people really need to dial back on the hipster self-righteousness, IMHO.
Zydeco isn't rock?
Not being snarky, but I think I really disagree.
I think the problem is the word "rock." It should be used as a verb, to "rock and roll."
I can rock and roll all night to Buckwheat Zydeco.
As Skip said:
The real problem seems to be that anyone cares who gets into the RRHoF... the whole enterprise has been a travesty since its inception.
Exactly! Who cares?
Personally, me thinks the R&RHOF is just a different vendor of corporate rock promotion along the same lines as the Grammy's (OK, not nearly that bad, but you get the general idea). R&RHOF has it easier, just go for long term popularity. But is all boils down to personal and collective opinions. In this day and age, everyone's a critic (Not just the chosen few of yesteryear.)
That said - as one gets older / more experienced, one can see more "value" in work outside of ones "like to listen to" zone. Not a bad thing. Given that, I suspect I'll find value in Rap when I'm dead. But PE t'aint bad.
Exactly! Who cares?
Well. for starters, I'm thinking any of the early rock acts who got ripped off financially and finally got their due as a result of being inducted.
DID any early rock acts actually benefit financially from being inducted? Through record royalties, or increased bookings on the oldies circuit? If so, then I'll put aside my cynicism and say the whole thing is worthwhile.
--Marc
I'm a believer that someone deserves a place in the R&R Hall of Fame because he/she/they produced a body of work worthy of acknowledgement.
The Grandmaster Flash track was a huge dance hit. But I don't know a damn thing about him other than that.
To exclude Procol Harum at this point is ridiculous. Were they rock? I don't even know how to define the term any more. But they created songs that will endure a lot longer than the three you linked to, imho.
I'm going to quote what I posted near the end of the comments on the Procol Harum/RRHoF post, because I think it's relevant and I was a bit late on that thread - but I'm pretty much in huge agreement with Sal's post above. Relevant to his post, there were positive comments in the Procol Harum thread for Albert King (not 'rock' as far as I can tell), and negative for Donna Summer & PE.
My comment:
Why such strong objection to Donna Summer and Public Enemy? I'm not a huge fan of PE or Summer myself, but I don't object to their being included in the Rock Hall. (I object more about Rush, but, as much as I dislike their music, I can see the argument.) But both PE and Summer made excellent music in their own niches, both were very influential, and if you straightjacket the definition of "rock and roll", you miss out on some really good music, as well as the cross-niche influences. I would hazard a guess that Public Enemy is =at least= as influential on "rock and roll" music as Albert King is.
My own response is that I'm most happy that Randy Newman made it in, as a fan of his. And he has a pretty good set of comments, relevant to what might be considered for the Hall, on the Rolling Stone website.
Excerpt:
RollingStone: The term "rock & roll" is fairly elastic.
Newman: It should be. To restrict it isn't right. It's funny; people get so doctrinaire about music. It should be the last thing you don't have an open mind about.
Link to Randy Newman Interview
YOU'RE the guy who listened to Air America!!
Hot Stuff in my opinion is a great rock song.
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