So the other day, I was talking with a friend about The Rolling Stones -- something that seems to happen less frequently than it used to, now that I think of it -- and the subject of some of their, shall we say, problematic songs came up. By which I mean the, you know, kinda sexist stuff like "Under My Thumb" et al, and as often happens, we drifted off into the larger issue of morality in art, i.e., is it still art if it's also morally reprehensible? Or, frankly, does art have a responsibility to be moral?
Yeah, right, yada yada yada. I should add, BTW, that in terms of music, at least, it's not just pop that has these kinds of problems. For example, I have Jewish friends who absolutely will not listen to Richard Wagner and (to a lesser, perhaps less fair, extent) Anton Bruckner because the sound of jackboots intrudes for them. And what about my personal favorite guy, Carlo Gesualdo...
...the 16th century aristocrat and composer who wrote some absolutely sublime madrigals at the same time he was murdering and mutilating people and getting away with it because of his social status?
Anyway, at some point in our discussion the subject of Richard Thompson came up, and my friend allowed how it was becoming difficult to overlook the fact that Thompson -- genius songwriter that he most certainly is -- was responsible for what might possibly be considered an inordinate number of songs that demonstrate a, shall we say, problem with the ladies. I countered that this was more misanthropy than misogyny, but I was probably just being difficult; in any case, it got me thinking.
It also gave me an excuse to post clips of two not as different as you might think versions of a Thompson song that could be exhibit A for what my friend was talking about -- "Turning of the Tide."
How many lips, how many hands, have held youOkay, so first here's Richard's version, from his 1988 album Amnesia. As you'll hear, it's kind of a jaunty rockabilly song despite the downbeat lyrics. Amazingly lyrical guitar, too; the overall effect is strangely poignant.
Like I'm holding you tonight
Too many nights, staying up late,
Too much powder and too much paint
No you can't hide from the turning of the tide
Did they run their fingers up and down your shabby dress
Did they find some tender moment there in your caress
The boys all say "You look so fine"
They don't come back for a second time
Oh you can't hide from the turning of the tide
Poor little sailor boy, never set eyes on a woman before
Did he tell you that he'd love you, darling, for evermore?
Pretty little shoes, cheap perfume,
Creaking bed in a hotel room
Oh you can't hide from the turning of the tide
And now here's the revved up punk rock version by Bob Mould, from the 1994 Thompson tribute album Beat the Retreat. Apart from the dangerous speed level, you'll note that Mould sounds far more disgusted with the trollop in question than the composer did; I'm reminded of Jules Feiffer's famous line that "In this culture, it's not just homosexuals who hate women -- it's everybody." 😎
In any case, a great song, if arguably troubling, and both versions are keepers, I think.
Your thoughts?

I like the Mould version. Good song. Not the most misogynistic song, but guilty for sure. Lots of men seem to hate women. Does Thompson see what he’s doing? Probably not, and that is really the issue. Cleveland Jeff
ReplyDeleteHaving seen RT numerous times, I'm convinced he's a good guy and a genius. He refuses to play the nice guy games most of us have to to get by. I don't think he's a misogynist, he hates everybody.
ReplyDeleteAs I said, I think he's a misanthrope, which I don't have a problem with. 😎
DeleteEither Anonymous is right, or you two are both part of the problem 😉
Delete@Cleveland Jeff
DeleteHahaa.
1 RT picks on everybody!
ReplyDelete2 I find it interesting that except for speeding the song up Bob Mould basically interprets the song emotionally in the same way RT does.
Captain Al
Jeezus. Let's toss, as genres, the blues and country music, and the folk music (Appalachian ballads, etc) that fed country, rock, blues, while we're at it, since heartbreak is a major, if not THE major theme for much of it. How dare Richard Thompson (and Big Mama Thornton, etc, etc) write/perform brilliant songs about stuff that makes other folks' radars go up.
ReplyDeleteIf the price to pay for RT, Van Morrison, Dylan, Billie Holiday, etc is that they might not be my cuppa tea as acquaintances, I'll take it.
C in California
And am I the only one who thinks the pic of Carlo looks like Richard Thompson? Another pox on RT for looking like a baddie from 400 years before his time!
ReplyDeleteC in California
Fortuitously, right now the most read story at The Guardian is "I am a 15-year-old girl. Let me show you the vile misogyny that confronts me on social media every day"
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/feb/23/15-year-old-girl-misogyny-social-media-online-abuse
at the risk of being seen as a prematurely sensitive new age guy, i still recall finding the murder threat in the beatles "run for your life" a bit disquieting
Well Rubber Soul was a bit upside down in their topics - it went everywhere from " run for your life" in closing to being preceded by "In My Life, Norwegian Wood, If I Needed Someone,Michele"
DeleteOur lives are made up of contradictions.
C in Ca. Agree! You're not alone.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else get MCC "Hearts..." on auto play when opening this page? Nice song, but enough already.
I'm sorry about that -- I don't know how to fix it, other than deleting the post. Maybe I should just do it.
DeleteThanks for deleting the post. I was going to ask you to post five things or so so it would be out of the queue of past posts that show up when one opens PP, but deleting it did the trick.
DeleteC in California
Thought it was just me! Thanks
DeleteWhat the world needs now is an instant-classic good old-fashioned murder ballad. Of course, the climate is such that only Taylor Swift could get away with it. So, come on, Tay-Tay!
ReplyDeleteSteve, love your thought -
ReplyDelete" Is it still art if it's morally reprehensible
or does art have a responsibility to be moral "
I'd love to ponder this over a few beers at McSorleys.
An appropriate topic for a city that Mapplethorp and Arbus worked in.
Musically I'm stomped at the moment
rob
I saw RT at an "all request" show about 10 years ago, and someone requested Under My Thumb. Which he duly performed, while making a wisecrack about the sexist lyrics. I don't think Thompson is a misogynist, or as casually sexist as mid-'60s era Jagger and Lennon. He's too self-aware for that. Is "Turning of the Tide" lyrically a bit uncomfortable, 38 years on? Yeah, a bit. Is it proof that he's a Neanderthal? I don't think so.
ReplyDelete"I wonder if anyone ever yelled a "Paint it Black You Devil paint it black. .". to Richard 😉
Delete